Reclaiming Sleep with Pediatric Sleep Consultant, Michelle Caris

"I didn't appreciate what some parents went through with sleep issues until my fourth baby came along." This candid admission from host Mel Schenker opens a refreshingly honest conversation with pediatric sleep consultant Michelle Caris about the challenges of helping children sleep and the life-changing benefits of getting it right.

Michelle reveals how her own sleep struggles as a new parent led her to become an IPSP certified pediatric sleep consultant with a mission to change the narrative around sleep training. "When parents hear 'sleep training,' they think they have to let their baby cry for hours until they eventually get exhausted and fall asleep. Yes, that's a method, but there are so many others." She details gentle alternatives like the "fade away" method, where parents gradually increase distance from their child's bed, and "quick checks" that allow parents to comfort their child at intervals they're comfortable with.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Mel realises she's been intuitively using a recognised sleep training technique with her three-year-old who is experiencing sleep regression. This moment highlights how parents often have good instincts but benefit from validation and structure. Michelle addresses the fear that sleep training might damage parent-child attachment, explaining that bonds built over months or years won't break during a few challenging nights. "You're responding to their biological need for sleep. You're teaching them a skill they'll use their entire life."

Perhaps most powerfully, Michelle emphasises that seeking help isn't a sign of failure but wisdom, even for experienced parents. Every child is different and sleep deprivation affects not just individual health but relationships and family functioning. Her personalised approach meets parents where they are, respecting their values while guiding them toward better sleep for the whole family.

Ready to reclaim peaceful nights? Connect with Michelle at sleepwellwithmichelle.com or on Instagram @sleepwellwithmichelle, and use code "beyondorganised10" for 10% off any sleep consulting package.

Chapters

• 0:18 Welcome to Beyond Organised
• 1:04 Meet Michelle Caris, Sleep Consultant
• 4:54 Beyond Cry It Out Methods
• 10:13 Regressing Toddlers and Check-in Technique
• 15:23 Breaking Through Parental Hesitations
• 20:42 The Importance of Asking for Help
• 24:34 Closing and Special Offer

Transcript

Mel: 0:18

Welcome to Beyond Organised, the podcast that helps you simplify your life and amplify your purpose. I'm Mel Schenker, life coach, speaker, founder of She's Organised, but, more importantly, a wife and mum of four little kids. If you've ever felt overwhelmed, like you're constantly juggling everything but never quite catching up, this is the place for you. Here we go beyond just the tidying up and creating systems. We're talking about real life strategies that bring order to your life, but also we talk about the things beyond the organizing, the things that really matter, like your parenting relationships and so much more. So grab your coffee and let's dive in. Welcome to another episode of Beyond Organised.

Mel: 1:04

I have the lovely Michelle Caris here and I'll give you a quick rundown as to who she is. So Michelle is an IPSP certified pediatric sleep consultant and fellow parent who understands the exhaustion and overwhelm that comes with sleep struggles. Combining professional training in the science of infant and child sleep with real-life parenting experience, michelle helps families reclaim peaceful nights and well-rested days through evidence-based, personalized support. Her compassionate, practical approach meets parents where they are at, creating sleep plans that honor each child's needs, respects parenting values and fit into real life. Michelle's mission is simple to guide families out of the fog of sleep deprivation and into a season of rest, confidence and connection. Welcome.

Michelle: 1:55

Michelle, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here with you, mel.

Mel: 2:01

Oh, you have no idea how much I need you right now, in this season of my life. Where have you been?

Michelle: 2:10

Well, you know, I'm happy to help.

Mel: 2:13

Yeah, oh, believe me, I've got a few questions of my own to be asking here, but, for the listeners, can you give us a bit of background as to what inspired you to become the pediatric sleep consultant?

Michelle: 2:29

Yeah, yeah for sure. So I'll try and make it like sort of brief. But a couple of years ago I actually got my health coaching certification. I kind of have a passion for the wellness space, but definitely not, you know, aligned with my day job. And then COVID happened and I had a baby, so that kind of trickled off.

Michelle: 2:50

And then my sister actually has recently become a doula a birth and postpartum doula and started working with a women's perinatal wellness center here near me in Michigan it's. It's called whole mama Michigan, so shout out to them. And she kind of roped me into that space and um, at the time I, you know I have a three-year-old now and, um, I just really felt in my heart like I wanted to spend more time with her. Um, I have a really long commute work, you know, full-time job, and just really was, you know, tugging at me that I wasn't seeing her as much as I wanted to and also I still had that that pull towards, you know, the wellness provide support for moms and also maybe allow me to go like part-time with my day job. So I still, I mean, I still enjoy what I do, but would it allow me to spend a little bit more time with my daughter? And I thought to myself what was some of the hardest parts of my parenting journey so far? And I said sleep.

Mel: 4:05

We had a rough go of sleep. Preach it.

Michelle: 4:07

Yeah, yeah, and I started learning through working with my sister in this other organization that there are so many resources out there for parents that you know people just don't know about. You know mental health specialists and you know doulas I didn't know what a doula was before my sister became one, all sorts of things and so I thought, you know, I really want to use this opportunity to support moms and help them, help their little ones sleep, so that they can be, you know, the best version of themselves and the best parents that they want to be.

Michelle: 4:43

So that's kind of what got me to where I am now.

Mel: 4:47

That is so good. Honestly, you are probably every woman's dream person in the first few years of a newborn life. It is so hard when it comes to sleep and just to throw a little of my life in there. My first three were really good sleepers. They slept through from around four or five months and I sort of did all the right things, you know. I put them down when they were not quite asleep yet and they would get themselves to sleep and it was great. It was great.

Mel: 5:24

And then my fourth came along and he did not read the manual and he's just turned one and only really in the last week or so. He's having some more nights now where he's sleeping through, but I'm still getting up most nights 2, 3, 4 am giving him a feed, putting him back down, settling him again, all of that, and he's one, and I didn't have to deal with that with the others and I'm sure there are mums out there that go, oh, boo-hoo, my kid's two or three and still have to deal with that, but I just it is. So I guess I didn't appreciate what some parents went through when it came to having issues with their child sleeping, because I was so blessed with my first three and it's like, it's almost like God when you need to experience this, so you know what other women have to go through.

Michelle: 6:22

You can emphasize.

Mel: 6:24

You've had it too easy. So yeah, anyway, you are, I'm sure, a breath of fresh air for most parents. So how do you mainly help people? What is your main methods or ways of going about helping these parents?

Michelle: 6:40

Parents yeah, so let me I'll explain the process a little bit and then I'll explain kind of the methodology that I use.

Michelle: 6:47

So process would be you would book a 15 minute free call with me, you know, tell me what's going on, get a sense to kind of know each other, and if we think it's a good fit, I will send an intake form to learn all the things about you and your baby.

Michelle: 7:04

You know your parenting style, baby's personality, how old they are, what you're struggling with and I'll put together a personalized, customized, just for you sleep plan that goes through all the things sleep environment, daytime schedule, nighttime, what to do when they wake up, how to put them down, all the things, nighttime, what to do when they wake up, how to put them down, all the things. And then I work with parents for up to two weeks daily touch points, answering questions, tweaking schedules, troubleshooting, all that kind of stuff. So that's kind of the process. And then, as far as methodology goes, one thing that I'm really trying to do is kind of change the narrative around sleep training, because a lot of parents when they hear sleep training they think, ok, I put my baby down and they just have to cry for hours until they eventually get exhausted and fall asleep. And, yes, that's a method, but there are so many others and that is not the direction that I tend to go in Nobody feels good.

Mel: 8:05

Nobody feels good. Nobody feels good hearing the baby cry. Baby doesn't feel good. Mom doesn't feel good, I know, yeah, it's hard, it's hard. There are some moments where I've had to let it happen, but not for too long, and that's okay, yeah, yeah, and that's okay, no-transcript.

Michelle: 8:55

Move that chair a little bit farther, a little bit farther away from the room, so that they, you know, gradually get used to being there in front of them, which is great for parents who maybe are currently having to lay next to their baby or toddler until they fall asleep, so that you know you're still in the room with them, they can still see you.

Michelle: 9:14

They get comfortable with you slowly being further away from them until they can eventually fall asleep with you. Out of the room is the end goal. And then for babies who are children usually still in cribs, that are maybe a little bit more on the stubborn side my daughter, because there are those babies out there there's a method called quick checks, which is I know a lot of people have heard of the Ferber method, but this is even a little bit more gentle than that where parents actually pick the interval that they will, you know, set their baby down, leave. Virpr is a little bit harder because the interval increases and there's no control or flexibility. This is okay. I feel comfortable with a three-minute timer or a five-minute timer or an eight-minute timer, you know I have been doing that you have.

Mel: 10:05

I didn't even realize. So just to cut you off completely.

Michelle: 10:09

No worries, tell me, I'm so sorry.

Mel: 10:10

But with my three-year-old. She's regressed lately.

Michelle: 10:15

It's just been the last couple of months.

Mel: 10:16

All of a sudden she wakes up. She needs dad or yeah, it's usually dad. So that's nice for you.

Michelle: 10:23

That's nice, but.

Mel: 10:28

And we have like, and he was just so tired that he was just going in there and there's a spare bed in her room and he would just fall asleep in there and then she would be in the cot and then it was just.

Mel: 10:40

It was just their habit, like getting into it, it was just easier to just sleep and then she would go back to sleep and it's fine because dad's in there, but then he's in the other room, all that you know. So I actually got up one night and I said we'll check on you in five minutes. And I came back in five minutes and she was like okay, okay. And she was still awake. So I said I'll come back in another five minutes, I'll check on you in five minutes. And she was asleep and I'm like, okay, and so we just started doing that more.

Mel: 11:08

And now at nighttime, when it's time to go to bed, she wants to have daddy in there or someone in there, and it's like no, no, no, no, no, we're not going down this path. You used to be able to sleep on your own, you're fine. But I just said you know, I'll check on you in five minutes. And then she's like, okay. And now she started saying just check on me in five minutes, that's so sweet.

Michelle: 11:29

So is that kind of what you're talking about. You're doing great, yeah, because you're creating those boundaries. You know like she needs to stay in her bed, right, but you're doing it in a loving way, like I'm here for you. I'm right here, like I'm not leaving you, I'm not abandoning you, I'll be back in five minutes if you need me, yeah you're safe, exactly.

Mel: 11:54

So need me. Yeah, you're safe, exactly so that you're doing amazing. I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't. We just I was like we just cannot go backwards.

Michelle: 11:59

I need my yes and that's with the baby exactly. And that's so important because sometimes parents will like and I've even been tempted myself where she goes, just lay with me, mommy, and I've been tempted to do it, but I know if I do it once it's going to turn into a habit. And then you have to break the habit and that's really hard. Where she goes, just lay with me, mommy, and I've intended to do it, but I know if I do it once it's going to turn into a habit and then you have to break that habit, and that's really hard.

Mel: 12:16

Yeah, and it is hard because you know that they're only little once and that time goes so fast. It's so special, the night seems so long, but the years go so quick, and so there are those moments when you think, okay, I'll just cuddle you because I need that, and you kind of have to stop yourself and go hang on a second. It's not about what I need in this moment, it's actually about what she needs, and I don't want to set her up to have bigger sleep issues, which then, in turn, impacts me and the rest of the family.

Mel: 12:52

yeah, so yeah it's sometimes you have to put your own sort of needs aside as well to help with them, but I love that. I sure I could have done with you a long time ago though well, I'm happy to help you through anything else.

Michelle: 13:09

There is a regression at three years old too, so that's probably what she went through. My daughter went through it too, and it was rough it is rough.

Mel: 13:18

I don't remember it with my older two, but yeah, anyway, yeah sorry, continue.

Michelle: 13:23

No, you're good. Um, I just wanted to make one comment too, that if moms are, or dads are, laying with their babies, and that works for them, or are feeding their babies to sleep, and that works for them, like, yeah, you can keep doing that, like if it works for your family that's okay.

Michelle: 13:38

I'm not yeah, no shame. I'm not gonna come in and say you need to do this or you need to do that, like I'm not here to judge. I'm here to provide whatever support your family needs, like maybe. Like there's all different types of situations. Maybe you're okay with night wake-ups but you want to get their naps better, or something like that. You know I'm not going to force my agenda on you.

Mel: 14:01

Yeah, no, I love that.

Mel: 14:02

And everyone has different priorities, different values and all that when it comes to kids and sleep, you get people right from the beginning that want to co-sleep and you get others, like myself, that will. I know that I won't get any sleep unless the baby is in its own crib, you know. So we are all different and we all have different values, and I love that you work with the parents and meet them where they're at. I think that's very reassuring, because I think there's enough stuff out there that judges and shames us, and it doesn't matter whether you oh, it doesn't matter if you're bottle feed or breastfeed, or you sleep with your child or you don't. You're going to be shamed, you're doing it wrong. There's enough things out there and it's so hard particularly for the first time parents to be able to navigate oh, just navigate all of it, to be honest, and it's hard enough without having the opinions of the world thrown at you.

Michelle: 15:08

Yeah, with the internet and social media.

Mel: 15:11

Oh, yeah, oh definitely, and I think it's great that you just come in, personalize it, meet them where they're at and just help them with whatever it is that they're struggling with, with the sleep, which is a really big thing. Oh, I love it. So what do you find is the main thing that holds parents back? Holds them back from being able to reach out for help or make the changes needed yeah, yeah, I think there's say two or three main things.

Michelle: 15:44

I think one is just the awareness and knowledge of what sleep training is like. What I talked about it's not just cry it out. There's so many other ways of doing it. I think the second thing is the worry that it will damage your attachment or your bond with your baby and your child, and I think this is a really, really big concern in today's day and age especially. But something that I tell moms is that your bond with your baby has been built over days, months, weeks, years. Right, so you've got a one-year-old.

Michelle: 16:19

You've had a year a year of time of love, of cuddles, being there for your baby, meeting their needs. So if there are one, two, three, even five nights where it's a little rough and rocky, that bond is not going to be broken.

Mel: 16:36

Yeah.

Michelle: 16:37

But you know, you've had a year and this is five nights, not even days, five nights out of that whole time, right, yeah, and you can always reestablish in the morning you wake up and you give them love and cuddles and hugs and kisses.

Mel: 16:54

Yes, plenty of kisses.

Michelle: 16:55

Yes, your baby knows that they are still loved. And then the third piece I touch on in my sleep plans, actually too, is the whole thing around responsive parenting, right? It's kind of a big keyword these days, and being a responsive parent really, if you break it down, really means you're responding to their needs. You're not responding to every little thing you can, but you're responding to their needs and sometimes you as a parent know a little bit more about their needs maybe than they do. In that maybe a little bit emotional moment as a one-year-old, yeah, so before you put them down to bed, you're making sure all their needs are met. Right, they're not hungry, their diapers changed, they're in comfy clothes, they're safe and you are responding to their biological need for sleep.

Mel: 17:50

That is what you're responding to.

Michelle: 17:52

when you do the sleep training, you're teaching them skill that they're going to be able to use for their entire life. Basically, if they have a hard time falling asleep now, then that usually continues for a while.

Mel: 18:08

You see it in adults now that say oh, I've always been a bad sleeper, like right from birth, you know, I've always been bad and they just accept that that's just how it is and I certainly don't want that for my kids. Yeah.

Michelle: 18:23

You want them to grow up well regulated and have those skills and all that kind of stuff. So I think those are kind of the main roadblocks that I try and chat with parents about and kind of relieve that anxiety a little bit.

Mel: 18:37

Yeah, that's really good. I think, out of everything that I'm hearing, I'm just hearing a lot of reassuring things. I think, as a parent, we can question whether we're doing it right, doing it wrong. I know there's not really a right or wrong as such, but you just wonder even four kids in, I'm still learning and I still go. Is there a better way of doing this? I don't know, but this is just really reassuring. But also, even as a fourth time mum, I would still go to you and seek you for help. Aw, thank you. I'm not even going to pretend to know everything, because every child is different, and I think I feel like there's almost this stigma that if you've got a second child or more, you should know what you're doing because you've already gone through it before. But every child is so different and, like I said, my first three slept really well and my fourth one is just nuts, so it's like so it feels like a first child again, because it's something you've never experienced.

Mel: 19:50

Yeah, exactly, and I just love that. All of this has been really reassuring, that it doesn't matter where you're at, how many kids you've got, what's going on. There is a method and there is a way to be able to get the help that suits you and your family, and I love that. And what is one thing that you wish? More women knew, or more parents knew Dads as well.

Michelle: 20:17

Yeah, I think a couple of things. I think the biggest one is it is okay to ask for help. It is okay to ask for support. Yeah, and I say that even to myself because I'm a pretty like independent, I can do it kind of person. Yeah, but when you're going through the trenches of early parenthood, I mean even just parenthood in general.

Michelle: 20:39

It's hard Like reach out. Rely on your friends and family. They want to be there for you, just like you want to be there for your friends and family. You know, reach out to a postpartum doula, a lactation consultant, a sleep consultant, a feeding specialist, your pediatrician, a mental health therapist, therapist, like. There are so many great resources out there for parents.

Mel: 21:02

You don't have to suffer in silence yeah that is probably the piece of advice I would give and that's a really good piece of advice because I feel like I know. For me it's almost like I should know what I'm doing because I'm a female and it's built into me to have babies and I should just know what I'm doing. That's the kind of thought pattern I had, particularly with my first one, and he never latched. I got the lactation consultant, unfortunately, and didn't help in that case. But then you go through the whole. There's something wrong with me, all of that and you start questioning and even when it comes to sleep, you just think they should know what they're doing and I should know what I'm doing.

Mel: 21:48

It's biological, all of that. It's a maze. There's so much to figure out and work out. But why not learn from someone that is experienced in this area or has walked that path and I love that you are both trained and experienced as a mom yourself in being able to help people and sleep is, honestly, it is the biggest thing. Sleep deprivation messes you up. Biggest thing like sleep deprivation messes you up. I know the times when I've been so extremely sleep deprived. It's almost like I felt like I was dying. I know that sounds so extreme, but I was going crazy. I couldn't think properly. There's no way I could drive safely or do anything. I just couldn't function yeah.

Michelle: 22:42

I mean, it's a biological need for your body.

Mel: 22:45

Yeah, To function Exactly, and if you don't get enough sleep, you do die, if you don't sleep at all. It is so important for our health and our recovery and just yeah.

Michelle: 22:57

Just your mental health. Marriages, everything, relationships, Yep.

Mel: 23:03

The relationships is a big one. It's such a strain, particularly in that first year with a baby. It's a big strain on a relationship and what you're doing is just so foundational, not just to the sleep of the baby but to the health of a relationship and the health of an individual in being able to function and move forward. There's a lot of aspects to what you're doing, and I think it's fantastic that you've chosen this profession to help people, and I love what you're doing. Thank you so much. Anyone who's listening, that wants to be able to connect with you and also loves what you're doing and thinks oh my gosh, I need Michelle. Where can they find you?

Michelle: 23:54

Yes, I'm a couple of different places. So I have a website it is sleepwellwithmichellecom, and my Instagram handle also is at sleepwellwithmichelle. So I'd say those are probably the link and they can get straight to you. But I have really enjoyed this conversation.

Mel: 24:22

I'm sorry I kind of hijacked it at a few points, because I'm busting with so many questions and I just, oh, I've loved learning from you and also realizing, oh, I'm doing a couple of things right, so that's good, thank you.

Michelle: 24:46

You're welcome and thank you so much. And one other thing I wanted to mention is I do have a code for any of your listeners. It is beyond organized 10. So 10% off any of my sleep consulting packages. And I spelled it with an S, so for anyone in the States I spelled it with an S.

Mel: 25:00

How you spell it? Mel? For all the Americans, canadians and that part of the world. Sorry, I'm sorry to confuse you. It is beyond organized with an S. Here I do it the English way. So thank you for that, michelle, and yeah, make the most of that, guys. It's such a great offer. And to be able to work one-on-one with someone clearly as knowledgeable as Michelle and as caring, I would be jumping straight on that and I'm probably going to be reaching out to you myself.

Michelle: 25:36

Michelle. Thank you so much, mel, I really appreciate that.

Mel: 25:40

You are welcome. Thank you for coming on the show and we'll talk to you soon Sounds good, thank you. If you loved this episode, don't forget to hit subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next. And if you want to continue the conversation, you can connect with me on Instagram at @shes. organised, or, for some free resources, head over to beyondorganised. com/ toolkit. Remember, organising is a tool to live the purposeful life beyond it. See you next time.